What is BALOO, and why is it good for you?

Many years ago, longtime Cub Scout training experts Matt Markham and Jessi King-Markham found that volunteers who willingly attended Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation to learn to take their Cub Scouts camping often balked at signing up for a second and separate training, what used to be called Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders (often referred to as “OWLS”).

There seemed to be a lot of overlap in content, so the couple’s district in the Northern Star Council ran a hybrid course that covered both syllabuses. The overnight event allowed leaders to get hands-on training in outdoor skills for Cub Scouts and Webelos Scouts.

That hybrid is still the official approach. BALOO covers what Cub and Webelos Scout leaders need to know to host a safe and fun pack camping event. And it does so in a single 30-hour weekend — all day Saturday and Sunday morning, for example.

What the weekend covers

Cub Scouting has changed significantly over the years, including the introduction of a new advancement program in 2015. That meant significant changes to BALOO, especially on the Webelos side.

What’s more, Markham says, is that Cub Scout camping has evolved with the advent of activities like geocaching.

“There’s a whole lot of people that want to do it that have no idea how, and there wasn’t really a way to teach them,” he says. “Now there’s actually a course that captures some of those outdoor activities and methods.”

Those activities and methods help explain why the course is delivered over 30 hours.

“We had a lot more skills to fit into the program, so we needed to take more time,” says Dennis Kampa, who starting overseeing BALOO as a member of the National Cub Scout Committee back in 2000.

The course provides training and especially ideas on how to host a pack-coordinated campout. In addition to the syllabus material that is presented, the opportunity to learn from those instructing and taking the course also adds value to participating in BALOO training. It is 30 hours of fun spending time with other Cub Scout adult leaders.

Online and in the field

The weekend experience is just part of BALOO. The course begins with eight brief online modules, available at my.scouting.org. Each module lasts 10 minutes or less and covers basics like the benefits of the outdoor program and health and safety considerations. Once you’ve completed those prerequisites, you’re ready for the weekend.

Of course, knowledge is only part of BALOO’s goal, King-Markham says.

“If we can get Cub Scouts camping, they’re going to be lifelong Scouts,” she says. “They’re going to be people who want to save the outdoors. They’re going to be people who bring their own families into the outdoors.”

Making the most of BALOO

Here are some tips for making the most of your BALOO experience:

  1. Take your time with the online modules. While you could zip through all the modules in little more than an hour, try to go at a slower pace. Step away from the computer between modules, and take time to explore some of the online resources provided. Also, review any sections you find confusing. Each module includes a table of contents that allows you to repeat previous sections. Just click the TOC button at the bottom of the window.
  2. Bring your questions — and your skits. Several of the online modules preview weekend content and will probably prompt questions you’ll want to ask. Bring those questions to the weekend, as well as skits or songs to share during the campfire program your class will plan.
  3. Arrive with an open mind. If your idea of roughing it is a motel without Wi-Fi, try to view the content through the eyes of your Cub Scouts. They’re thirsting for adventure. On the other hand, if you’re an expert camper, remember the purpose of the course is to prepare you to lead den and pack overnighters — not rugged backcountry excursions.
  4. BALOO training is hosted by your local council. The council can share upcoming training dates offered locally. Given the hands-on learning approach of BALOO, there are no online-only courses.


    • Comparing the learning objectives between IOLS and BALOO, they are very similar.
      Becouse this is so similar and there are limited district resources, we are combining the two courses. Just makes sense.

      • Page 7 of the IOLS Syllabus
        “In many councils, this course is presented concurrently with Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO) training for Cub Scout leaders. The content of each of these courses must be presented independently and MUST not be combined.”

    • Right! I agree! I just did this program this last Fall and not I’m looking to do IOLS since my son moved up in December!

  1. Scouting needs to start looking at how it can combine trainings. We want to retain kids but also leaders and we are increasingy asking leaders to take a day or more and get trained on some of the same skills they need in both groups. The new Cub Scout program is designed to build into Boy Scouts yet there is outdoor and skills training for both levels that leaders have to take in order to be trained. Combining trainings would make more effective leaders at the Cub level, especially Webelos, and make them more open to being an ASM or SM when the time comes. I understand we all need to be safe, and slight differences exist, but all the trainings drive new leaders away.

    • I would agree on the leadership load. Especially when I repeatedly get responses from leaders after in person training that the training takes twice as long as it should. This isn’t the message we want to convey. Scouting should be working harder to embrace multiple models for training. Not everyone learns best from textbooks or teacher-student setting. A mix that includes a Mentor relationship would be more aligned to the scouting ethic.

    • As a new leader, I was hungry for all the training I could get. I understand the importance of training and retraining due to new methods and technologies. The thing that is driving me away from being a volunteer leader is the uncooperative parents! If anything, there needs to be training offered to all the parents, not just the volunteer leaders.

  2. I’ve put off BALOO as Cubmaster because my weekends are precious and we have someone trained in the pack. Now I have to give up an entire weekend? I’ve been a scouting leader for 8 years and have to question the necessity of this. Scouting is already a second job for me, now this. I am very dedicated to our scouts and giving them a quality program but BSA needs to get realistic about the demands you place on your volunteers.

    • I agree with Marc. I thought the one-day BALOO curriculum was spot on for Cub Scout leaders. It taught the necessities for safe family camping, and good tips for outdoor cooking and camping. I never saw OWL as necessary, and I don’t think our Pack or our Webelos Dens have been for want of the additional training. This new 30-hour BALOO training is overkill. I will struggle to get any of my leaders to commit that type of time away from their kids and families. I’d be shocked if more than a year passes before the 1-day program is reintroduced.

    • You don’t necessarily have to do it if you have an adult in your unit who is willing to be a BALOO trained volunteer at pack overnighters. You are absolutely right that being a scout volunteer is a second job and it’s a sacrifice.

    • Marc, Training is the essential cord that holds Scouting together. Without leadership, training adults can/will miss the trail entirely. An untrained adult Scouter is no way to grow and maintain a quality program. I cannot imagine a good quality Cubmaster that has not taken BALOO and IOLS. You are just beginning this trail if this is your issue. Take all the training you can and offer Scouts the best experience possible. You WILL learn to be a better Scout Leaser if you are willing to be trained, and even those with your attitude may learn something, certainly, you will enrich your skills if you will keep an open mind. After offering BALOO Training for over ten years, teaching others to train, we have an experience that is World Class for meeting its goals. I am constantly stopped at meetings by those adults, now years in to Scout Leadership, that tell me, “Your Program sold me on Scout Training, thanks”. BALOO and IOLS are essential, they reach adults that have barely camped overnight before, each offers critical information, the programs build our base of training cadre. Give up more than a precious weekend for Scouting. Get Trained! Embrace the program. “Do Your Best” and “Be Prepared.” “Every Scout deserves a Trained Leader.” Live those slogans If YOU WON’T DO IT, WHO WILL?

  3. Sign me up! Although I’ve spent many weeks in the field over the course of a 20-year military career, camping with Cub Scouts is not the same thing—different environment, routine, and purpose. Plus, this can be a great excuse for us to take a break from our families over a weekend. I’m looking forward to attending and being better prepared for the upcoming Pack camping trips. YIS

  4. I have already completed both BALOO and IOWL training. As a Cubmaster I like the approach of combining the two. Example: Cub Scout leaders at the Tiger, Wolf and Bear rank will be ready for Webelo and AOL camping without missing a beat. Allows your leaders to move forward with your scouts with no interruptions.

  5. I just did the new course two weeks ago. As someone involved with a brand new Pack and new to Scouting, but not to camping, I thought it was fabulous. There was another group doing IOLS at the same time, camped adjacent to us; we had meals together and did a shared campfire – other than those two things, the IOLS group covered a long list of different materials from what we went over. I was pleasantly surprised that I got so much out of it. Definitely time well spent.

  6. Marc is spot on.
    And it is even more critical from my point of view. I am cubmaster of a very new pack. I struggled to get two leaders baloo trained barely a month prior to our first campout. Now one is no longer active with us. I am the sole baloo trained member. If my work schedule doesnt allow for a particular timeframe for a campout, we wont be able to go. I had, and have, enough challenge to recruit even a barely minimul volunteer staff, consisting only of den leaders. I cant imagine getting them or my nonpaying parents to step up for a 30 hour weekend.
    Interesting enough, i took baloo last fall. If it had been the newer overnight weekend course, i possibly would not have made it, and quite likely could have been forced to cancel the campout.

    • I know the scout training site says BALOO is mandatory for overnight campouts, but why? Can someone point out where in the BSA insurance policy it says someone won’t be covered if there isn’t a BALOO certified adult present? As several have already mentioned, the BSA needs to be careful with the requirements it puts on its VOLUNTEER leaders. We already donate a ton of our time to our kids. And if a Pack does have a family campout without a BALOO certified adult and someone gets hurt I would like to see coverage denied. That happens and they can kiss fundraising from that Pack goodbye.

    • exactly correct.
      our pack has one baloo trained leader and when this was a daylong course we could not get people to take it, now the training requires an overnight? its a recipe to kill cub scout camping in our pack and i’m sure others.

      the best part for me was when i reached out to our council to ask about the changes the program director don durbin completely blew me off.
      the more time i spend around the scouts (and i have a lion scout, a boy scout and a venturer,and am active with all 3 groups) the more i realize that the less contact with anyone about the district level, the more i like being a scout leader

      making this training last thru the boy scout program would certainly help get people to take it.

    • I want to add, that I thoroughly enjoyed the one day course; it was outstanding. And I imagine the weekend overnight course would likewise be great.
      My issue is simply the time expected to be given up. If my pack misses some camping opportunities, I’m guessing I’ll lose some scouts.

    • Drew,
      That sounds exactly like how I started in my Pack. We had to have a Come to “Baden Powell” meeting about our goals and objectives. As a “newbie” on my first Baloo overnight year ago when it came time for dinner everyone jumped in cars and drove quite a ways away from camp to a restaurant. The next morning, breakfast was catered back to camp by a McDonald’s drive-through. Securing parent leadership and committment and precious time was a tough challenge. That 15 member pack grew to over 75 members in a few short years. We followed the program. They (your leaders) are out there. Creating a vision and planning a good program will get you there. Keep working. DO YOUR BEST!

  7. My District training team took a different approach: we saw a lot of overlap between IOLS and OWLS, so we combined those and stressed the age-appropriate guidelines. It was valuable for the Webelos leaders because they A) experienced more advanced patrol-focused outdoor skills and skipped the Pack-level program management stuff, B) saw a bit of a preview of the Boy Scout program, C) mingled with ASMs, and D) didn’t need to repeat the whole thing through IOLS in one/two years. Our approach helped them more seamlessly transition into Boy Scout leaders and, in turn, helped them prepare their Webelos patrols for Boy Scouts. We always got great feedback on this approach from the attendees.

    We offered all 3 trainings on the same weekend in the same location (usually Camporee weekend) and would bring the BALOO members over for lunch, equipment, and campsite inspection. Other than that, BALOO and OWLS were separate because they served completely different purposes with almost completely different modules.

    We always optionally invited BALOO attendees to stay overnight (for free) to see campfire, cracker barrel, Scout’s Own, etc., but NO ONE ever took us up on that offer. They were there for the day and that’s all they wanted. I am not sure how well this BALOO overnighter is going to turn out, but I am not excited about it. I have already heard some grumblings, but I guess time will tell once we’ve been through a few seasons…

  8. As a BALOO Trainer for 13 years, I welcome the change. The one day was good, and did change with the advancement change in 2015, combining BALOO and OWLS will be a nice change. I completely understand the frustration expressed about giving up a weekend away from family, my hope is that this will be a good networking time as well. I think the more in depth training will be very helpful.

  9. It seems that many leaders and parents see training as necessary to check off a requirement. They resist committing the time to an in person course in favor of completing an online course.
    Trainings such a BALOO, IOLS, Woodbadge are more than completing the course. These course are an opportunity to live the experience we should be delivering to the Scouts. #4 should be added to the “Making the most of BALOO”. The weekend is an opportunity to meet other leaders, share knowledge and experiences, and develop relationships with other Packs. Fellowship is an important part of Scouting and delivering the program. I have attended many trainings over 30+ years as a leader and always learn from the others in the program. I find that making new friends and sharing our experiences gives me new energy when I return to address our challenges.
    Making time for a weekend of training is difficult, but when balanced against the benefits it is a good investment that pays off in a quality program.

  10. Perspective on OWL training. It is much better aligned to IOLS as the Webelos and Arrow of Light ranks are truly preparatory for Scouting. I would have preferred that Webelos leaders take IOLS . . . prepares some of those leaders to fleet up to assistant Scoutmasters fully trained. Pushing it downward into BALOO was not a good idea and should be reconsidered.

    • The only issue I have with combining BALOO and OWLS is that BALOO is very focused on pack camping not den camping There is a huge difference between these two. Also BALOO does not cover how to use den camping and the new adventures to better prepare the cub scouts for crossover. Their is a lot of synergy between the new adventures and the boy scout program. It makes it harder to leverage this if the one course (OWLS) that discussed this had been discontinued. And the new BALOO does not go over this at all..

      • > The only issue I have with combining BALOO and OWLS is that BALOO is very focused on pack camping not den camping There is a huge difference between these two.

        What’s the difference?

      • There is no more OWLS. It is now only BALOO which is inclusive of the WEBELOS Den and their program.

  11. Why is there no date on this article other than the comments?

    Also, I agree, IOLS and BALOO should be combined — no real reason to have them separate.

  12. Our BALOO and OWLS were combined but, no one bothered to tell me when I signed up for “BALOO”. It was a long day, but it was done in 12-13 hours and I only lost one day. I do wonder what is added to double the hours of training. Maybe some overkill. I am still trying to finish up “retaking” the Pack Committee Training. It is WAY more extensive than the old one.
    I like the ideas I have seen to keep BALOO for Cub Leaders and have Webelos leaders take IOLS. Most Webelos
    Leaders I know end up crossing over with their boys. Plus, you can Keep It Simple and Make It Fun for the newbie Cub Leaders/Parents so they don’t get Training Fatigue.

  13. Requiring an overnight campout is overkill. Having it the first weekend in March is even worse. Family time on weekends and health are key concerns. Erie Shores council in Nw Ohio, this is going to drive volunteers like me away. Poor choice BSA.

  14. I’m with the group that sees this as a kill point for Cub Leader training. Getting enough Cub Pack Leaders to have Baloo to cover their outings is hard enough and running the OWL every two years we have been keeping the WEBELOS-AOL leaders on track but with the rapid (relative) change over of Cub families it often falls on the dedicated leaders to shift and cover so that outdoor activities can be held for the Pack. Now requiring them to have a weekend course to stay current will be a turnoff for all except the most dedicated volunteers at that level. Remember they have Cub scout age children and covering their needs & schedule, often with a single parent family will be hard if not impossible. Too often the Trainers, who are dedicated people, heavily involved, don’t take into consideration the willingness of the Casual family member to volunteer.

  15. Our District decided to combine BALOO and IOLS into a one day course that uses the same staff to teach rotating courses throughout the day. When a ‘Den’ rotates into a class, the instructor focuses on the BALOO curriculum; likewise, when a “patrol’ rotates into the same class, the instructor focuses on the IOLS curriculum. Our volunteer scouters time is precious and our instructors are limited. It makes sense to combine two courses.

  16. How does this affect people who have already taken BALOO? If you took the old BALOO, with the understanding that you would need to take OWLS later, do you just miss out on the things that would have been covered in that training? Or do those trained with the old version have to retrain with the new one?
    Has the course number changed? I actually took (and enjoyed) the weekend version through a neighboring council, while ours was still offering the one day version, so if they just go by completion date, that won’t be accurate for me.

  17. Adults who achieved Eagle Scout as a boy should be exempt from BALOO. I understand the need for training, but 30 hours? No wonder BSA is losing interest from boys and their parents! Parents are BUSY people. In addition to my job and scouts, I have to take care of my mom with MS, fitting this in will be difficult at best. Our pack is chronically disorganized because we don’t have enough people who have the time to volunteer. This only makes a bad situation worse.

    • I would have to respectfully disagree as the program changes, and an Eagle Scout from 20 years ago may not be current on the methods of Scouting, program changes, etc. I’ve had Asst Scoutmasters that received Eagle many moons ago and were still in that mindset. They should have this training, if nothing else, to get a good refresher.
      I do however, agree that the time restraints are long and would love to see this evolve further in that we can combine all three together, and someone who only want BALOO would be free to leave at “X” time, with the understanding that if they do continue to stay in Scouting they would then be required to take the full weekend course. I think we can “marry” these three training’s to make it easier on everyone.

      • Thank you, Sue, for saying that nicer that I would have.
        Combining the programs, however, seems unlikely, for several reasons. The cost would have to be higher; why would someone needing BALOO want to pay more for the longer outing? And while there is some overlap, the BALOO focus on Cub Scouting and the limitations on what the little guys are expected to do, is notably different from what is covered in IOLS and what the older boys can handle. And converse to the first point, someone only working with older boys really wouldn’t need to take extra time to go over the limitations of the younger ones, and the extra work that is expected of the adults. Unless the content is diluted (not optimal), combining would not make the entire process shorter, but longer, which would not be an improvement.

        Also, Brendon, keep in mind that part of that 30 hours is SLEEPING. It is only an evening and a day. When I went a few weeks ago, I didn’t have to leave work early, and was still able to attend church on Sunday.

      • The official training material really doesn’t focus much on the limitations of Cub Scouts. It’s mentioned, but it’s not really like it has its own chapter. Cub Scout-related programs are gone over, but the basic knots are the same, meals are the same, program planning is the same, duty to God is the same, cooking and sanitation is the same, etc.

        The main difference is that you’d allow Boy Scouts more latitude with cooking for themselves, etc. But then the same would be true for more mature Cub Scouts who may have also already started cooking at home. I made my first pot of macaroni and cheese by myself at about 6.

        I don’t think it would be a very big deal to combine IOLS for Boy Scouts and BALOO for Cub Scouts. In either case, it’s training for adults not training for the kids, and the adults will likely know best just how capable their kids actually are.

      • The fact that 30 of those hours is sleeping, though, is problematic for single-parent households. Instead of asking them to find childcare for a day, we’re asking them to find someone to watch their kids overnight.
        Given how seriously we take Youth Protection, setting up a situation where leaders are asked to have someone else watch their kids overnight (without any oversight, two-deep leadership, or rules about alcohol) seems like a bit of a conflict to me.

  18. I’m a BALOO course director and I do my best to make it as fun as possible, because I know that people are giving up a weekend. I see BALOO, IOLS, and Wood Badge as a training path each with its own purpose. BALOO is truly an introductory course meant to teach the basics of outdoors safety and for many volunteers it is the first time they have ever set up a tent or cooked outdoors. IOLS might be the first time they hear the word “patrol”. I tell people to do IOLS before Wood Badge, because you don’t want to learn the patrol method at Wood Badge when you could be focusing on your patrol instead. If you are a seasoned scouter, Eagle Scout or former scouter, please be paitient with your BALOO staff. We are there to encourage safe and fun camping in the cub scout program. Show your scout spirit by participating and having fun! If you see room for improvement, offer feedback. A good staffer will welcome feedback.

  19. IOLS in our district is a 2 weekend course with an indoor and outdoor component. We have a 2 week break to plan a campout as a patrol. I can’t imagine combining the training. As the BALOO sylllabus stands right now, there is no way I could stuff in patrol method and orienteering. They added geocaching, acquatics, meal planning, knots, lanterns, fire building, knives, campsite selection, and Scout’s Own. The new round robins are intense and the course is stuffed full during the day and a half. We are covering more than I covered in BALOO or OWLS collectively when I took the courses.

    • A combined BALOO and IOLS may not be as difficult as you suppose especially if you look at it from the learning objectives perspective. It is not too difficult to add in the BALOO objectives and cover them. We hold an early evening session to cover some material so that the outdoor portion can concentrate on those items that are best done outdoors.

  20. I’m not sure that Cub Scout leaders are particularly interested in learning how to set up an axe yard, pack for back country trip, orient a map, purify water, or learn how a boy scout patrol works. I think maybe my IOLS was different? I just don’t see fitting this all in. My BALOO agenda is already stuffed full. It’s going to be a hectic weekend. There are 10 people on staff and 40 participants.

    • Sara is correct. I’m involved with Cub Scouts only and that is unlikely to change – I don’t have a child in the Pack. Plus, combining BALOO & IOLS would be information overload and likely make it difficult to keep the different requirements for the different levels separate in your mind.

    • Under the Adventures program Cub Scouts do now, most of those things are included. We just taught water purification last night to our Webelos and the “essentials” list grows at each level. I don’t think it is a bad thing to have too much information, especially since this program builds to Boy Scouts so well.

      • But are you going to teach your Webelos to use an axe or orient a map? I can’t imagine a Webelos scout even having the patience to learn that. And it’s hard enough to teach the cub scout basic knots at BALOO without also adding the the boy scout basic knots. We had to build an outdoor shelter during our course. Anyone who is interested in being a Scout Master or ASM should take IOLS, but not everyone is going to go on that leadership path. I did it as part of my Wood Badge ticket and had a blast. I had been in scouting for only 6 months when I went to Wood Badge and decided that as part of my ticket I would get as outdoor trained as possible, because I was sick of freezing to death in my tent on October Wisconsin nights.

      • We do teach Webelos knife/saw. Axe on top of that is a few more minutes and won’t make much of a difference to the overall course.

        The Baloo knots are: overhand, square, two half-hitches, taut-line hitch, bowline, then fusing, and whipping.
        The IOLS knots are those plus: timber hitch, sheet bend, clove hitch, then lashing.

        The three additional knots aren’t that big of a difference. The lashing is a notable difference, but if you understand the knots then it’s not that big of a deal. You can point out how a bowline is a sideways sheet bend and how that contributes to its strength while also contributing to how it’s susceptible to ring-loading. You can point out that the clove hitch is actually two half-hitches but tied around a log or something instead of around a rope. And a taut-line hitch is basically two half-hitches with an extra wrap on the inside of the knot. There’s a lot to be said, in my opinion, for teaching all of those knots together.

      • That may be so for Cub Scouters planning on continuing to older levels but with this new course you are requiring the Wolf/Bear den leaders who might be in it fir a year or two, single parent, to either take a weekend course to go out family/Pack camping or continue to put on the older cubbers to committ more time to pack outings

  21. The new BALOO course has 18 round robins, not including the 3 flag ceremonies, 3 meals, 1 worship service and the campfire. There is seriously no time for extra – unless you want to make it two nights. Our council stretches from the Upper Michigan to southern Wisconsin has 35,000 scouts and 9,000 volunteers. We used to hold 3 courses a year, but now with the new program I can only afford 2. We have 40 participants and 13 staff. I’m trying to plan my first overnight program and it’s a challenge. I’m requiring all staff to be Wood Badge trained. I’m seriously considering going to the training conference on the new program at Philmont this summer.

    • Going to smaller participant groups might be better. Keep participants at no more than 10 people, no more than 10-15 participants and 2-3 instructors. Rotate instructors so that it’s not the same 2-3 people each time. You should be able to charge enough for food that the council gets $1 or $2 for each participant, which would mean that there’s no financial bar to having more training events. I’m not sure where all the money is going — for BALOO it’s only a single lunch.

      I think it could be set up so that older-Scout-specific stuff is done all Friday evening, then a mixed group on Saturday with all of the “combined” things with a couple separate breakouts for some younger-Scout-specific stuff.

      • The new BALOO training is no longer just lunch, it’s lunch, dinner, cracker barrel and breakfast. There costs associated with renting the facility, even when it’s held at a BSA camp we pay rental / facility use fees. It is more in-depth than the previous program.

      • Don’t hold it at Scout camp. 🙂

        I’m sure there are other facilities if you look around — people don’t need to actually sleep there. Try a church basketball court with a propane campfire in the parking lot if nothing else. There are ways to cut the cost down and if the Council charges too much for the training to really be viable then cut the Council out.

        Where I grew up in Southern CA, National Forest use fees were always cheaper than what the Council wanted to rent a camp, so other than Wood Badge or the like virtually no training ever happened at a camp.

        All training should ultimately be profitable for the Council. If this means cutting out the Council’s camp fee and doing the training elsewhere, then do the training elsewhere. 🙂

      • I think the fees are ultimately profitable for camp because they cover camp costs; although, I can’t claim to know what the money covers. And, since we are a non-profit aren’t we supposed to break even? In the new syllabus the participants do have to stay overnight. Our neighboring council to the south would hold OWLS that are only a day and I thought it was odd that they deviated from the syllabus like that.

      • I don’t see anything in the syllabus requiring sleeping over, or that if a person didn’t sleep over they couldn’t get certified. The schedule goes to campfire/cracker barrel, then starts the next morning at breakfast. What a person does in between (and where they sleep) is likely up to them, given that we’re all adults.

        “And, since we are a non-profit aren’t we supposed to break even?”
        No. Non-profit means the profits are spent on whatever the business wants to spend them on. For-profit means there are shareholders who eventually get some share of the profits. There are some other legal differences like which forms you file, and various salary caps, but that’s the difference in a nutshell.

      • Actually, with the new program, they do have to sleep over. We try to hold it centrally to everyone, we cover the west side of Michigan, very large area. The best resource and location for us is the BSA camp at this time. Doesn’t mean we look for other areas as well, but right now it’s our best option.
        We usually have about 25-30 participants per session, we don’t put a limit on how many can attend.

    • Total Side Note: are you in what is or was Hiawatha? I’m in West & Northern Michigan….President Ford Field Service Council 🙂

      • No, I’m in Kettle Country District, which is on the south side of the council about a half hour from Milwaukee. Hiawathaland is on the north side in the upper penninsula.

  22. Since we have such a large council, I would have to hold it 4 times a year to accommodate the demand. The camp buildings alone are $400 of my budget. When I took OWLS at our neighboring council, it was only 15 participants, but they are about a third of our size. We are modifying the syllabus a little, but for the most part our council Training VP wants the syllabus followed as closely as possible. Participants are going to get an insight into IOLS and Wood Badge for sure, because the pace is about the same. My goal is to make people have enough fun and make new friends that things like latrines and camping in below freezing temps is worth it. Polar Bear anyone?

    • See my response to Sue Fiebig just above your comment.

      All training should ultimately be profitable for the Council. If this means cutting out the Council’s camp fee and doing the training elsewhere, then do the training elsewhere. 🙂

      Meet in a park. Camp out in people’s backyards. Especially if you drop the class down to a max of 20 people, including instructors, there’s ways to get the training class done on a small budget that still leaves a little left over to give the Council.

  23. That is food for thought.I’ve been thinking of ways to break it up over multiple sessions, but the problem we run into is asking volunteers to give up so much of their time to staff. We could always explore the idea of bringing it to a district level instead, which would give us more flexibility on location. And we could get creative on combining it with camporees.

  24. Another thought, we understand it’s hard to give up time, but has anyone ever thought of holding a family camp for their unit at the same place / time as BALOO so you don’t miss too much family time?
    Also, the “rules” say you have to have someone who is BALOO trained on the campout….what about opening your event up to another Pack that has someone? Or….invite a BALOO trainer and ask them to cover the materials while at your campout?
    There are many ways to make it work….we just have to look outside the box!

    • It’s a fantastic idea! Our council has had the same thought. I agree that there is a lot of room for creativity. Maybe do it during resident camp even.

  25. What I find difficult is when you have a cub master and leader such as my husband and myself. Obviously, this causes issues as we both can not attend at the same time, due to having 5 children at home. Also, do they not consider that many leaders work weekends. My husband works most weekends, so in order to be off for training he must take 2 out of the 4 vacations days he receives each year to go. While my husband and myself love scouting, it is getting more impossible to do each year. It is the only organization I know of that charges people to volunteer, and requires them to take paid days off of work to attend training. I am afraid if this continues, that our small pack will close.

  26. Does BALOO REQUIRE an overnight stay by the participants? I recently heard of a council that gave the participant part of the “new” BALOO during University of Scouting with no overnight stay, compacting the 30 hours to 17 hours and passing them off as completed.

    I read the syllabus and there is no specific instruction that requires to participants to sleep there overnight.

    • The new syllabus requirement for the overnight is implicit in the schedule. Page 6 states, “the course content should be presented to the participants as
      outlined in this guide.” and page 10 has the participants planning for THEIR overnighter. It is a sample agenda, but it implies that the training should provide the participants with an actual overnight experience.
      A council that does not do the overnight puts Scouting at risk. If something happens on a Pack camping event, then they have opened the door to liability.

  27. I don’t have a copy of the syllabus, but the article this thread is based on says online modules plus weekend campout.
    If that’s actually the intended time-frame, then there’s no opportunity for participants to plan their BALOO campout. By the time they meet each other, that campout is already under way. I assume that this planning will require some of the knowledge gained through the training,so that would need to be pushed early, too.
    That doesn’t sound like what’s being promoted, so it seems reasonable to think the syllabus is showing a group planning their imaginary overnight.

  28. Having already run this program, I can tell you that participants really benefitted from the overnight portion. People bonded over cracker barrel and breakfast. We grouped people by district and there was a lot of talk of starting to attend roundtable together and sign up for Wood Badge together.

  29. I think the overnight portion is valuable, but shouldn’t be a dealbreaker. We have one leader in our pack who has sometimes been unable to get someone to care for their animals overnight and has stayed with us camping until everyone is turning in, then driven home to sleep, do morning chores then get back to camp earlier than any of the rest of us were ready to be stirring.
    I would hope that sort of accommodation would be allowed.

  30. I am part of the pack leadership, people stated you only need to commit 1-2 hrs per month. There is always a challenge with having enough adult leaders or volunteers to complete any task, and the same 5-8 parents bare most of the burden. The requirement of 1.5 days for the training, has counted me out. I was also surprised when none of the pack parents wanted to sign up either. Perhaps we can just rent a Baloo trained individual when we want to do camp outs.

  31. I did attend the previous baloo which was one day then OWLS was actually a two night adventure. Loved it.the overnight was geared towards Webelos and boy scouts. I will be completing all training on my second adventure as a Den leader.

  32. I dknt know where to voice my opinion but as scoutmaster this problem is rearing its head for us now. The overnight is too much, the not allowing a costs to attend means leaders need to find kid sitters. It’s too onerous and it’s taking the camping out if cubs. I have tried incentives like free campouts for the Baloo trained leaders and their scouts but when it comes down to it the overnight the jump from 8 hours commitment to 28 hours is unnecessary. Honestly the 8 hours was enough. I know someone somewhere was probably unprepared for a overnight that instigated the change, but to put the burden on all of scouts is too far.

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